Bonding Over Science, Episode 4: Finding Earth’s Lost History on Mars

On episode four of Bonding Over Science, host Dawn Stringer talks to EMSL user Kim Tait, who is using Martian meteorites to determine if the necessary ingredients for life once existed on Mars. Listen to Tait explain how these findings could teach us about our own planet. 

Interested in learning more about this topic? 
Read the web feature on Martian meteorites.

Transcript:

[start] 

<<music>> 

Dawn Stringer: Do you believe in life beyond Earth? 

Thanks to researchers working with the Environmental Molecular Sciences Laboratory, there could be some clues to life on Mars. 

I’m Dawn Stringer with Bonding Over Science. Let’s hear more about humans getting a closer look at the mysterious planet. 

<<music>> 

Dawn Stringer: Have you ever heard of a minerologist? 

Well, I hadn’t, and I don’t know much about the microbiology of Martian meteorites, so I asked the only mineralogist I know, Kim Tait. 

<<music>> 

Dawn Stringer: Kim, thank you so much for joining us today on Bonding Over Science. 

Kim Tait: I'm so happy to be here. So thanks for having me. 

Dawn Stringer: Of course. Now, tell me a little bit about your background and how you got interested in this type of work. 

Kim Tait: Sure. So I was one of those kids that picked up rocks on the ground. I was just always really excited about rocks, and that was very weird to my family, and they didn't know why I was so interested in rocks. But, you know, I think some of those fundamental questions that I had as a child still sort of ring true today. 

I've always been very interested in how different minerals have formed. Why are there certain colors, why they're certain shapes, why they're certain, you know, all sorts of different properties of minerals. And I think that's just sort of been a theme throughout my education and through my experiences is just asking those kind of really fundamental questions about why things are the way they are. 

So I have a PhD from the University of Arizona in geology, geosciences with a specialty in mineralogy. And I've used those skills that I have to ask questions not only about our planet, but also from other planets, other asteroids, other parts of the solar system that I've been really interested in. So, yeah, I'm, you know, the project I'm working on is on Mars and how Mars rocks have formed and why they're there and sort of their history. And I think some of the skills that I've learned throughout my education is just sort of understanding how things work and are built. And that's what I do with all of my projects. 

Dawn Stringer: So there hasn't to my understanding, you can correct me if I'm wrong, there hasn't been a lot of human interaction on Mars. So why Martian meteorites? 

Kim Tait: Martian meteorites are the only samples that we have from Mars right now. And we are currently working on a project to bring back samples in 2030, like early to mid-2030s. So until that time and even planning that mission, we need to study what we have and that is in the form of Martian meteorites. So Martian meteorites are materials from the surface of Mars that have been launched off the surface by, you know, sort of an impactor, has removed some of the material that has gone up into the atmosphere outside of Mars, gravitational pull. 

And then it has crossed Earth's gravitational pull and brought it into our planet. Now it has to survive through our atmosphere, we have a very protective atmosphere, which is a very good thing for life, it keeps us really safe. But every once in a while, material does land on the surface of our planet. We are almost three quarters water, so much of it goes into the oceans and in lakes or in places where it's unrecoverable. But if we're really lucky, we are able to recover this material. And then also lucky to get it to an institution like the ROM [Royal Ontario Museum] into a museum where people can study it and access it for these investigations. So here at the institution that I work at, which is the Royal Ontario Museum, we have one of the larger collections of Martian meteorites. 

And so I have them here and I'm able to study them and sort of ask some of the fundamental questions of, you know, why did these rocks form, how did they form, how old they are? All these kind of questions. And I use this sort of toolkit that I've learned throughout my education. 

Dawn Stringer: Why would you say these fundamental questions are important? 

Kim Tait: Oh, it's a good question. So what's good about our planet for life is that it's a very dynamic planet. We have volcanoes, we have plate tectonics, we have water, we have freeze-thaw cycles. We have all these activities happening on Earth, which is great for life but it is also a great recycler. 

It takes away the rock's history of sort of its origin, how it formed in the beginning. And so some of the oldest rocks we have here on Earth are in the range of, you know, 3.8 billion. But we think the Earth is about 4.6 billion. So we've lost this, you know, this really early part of our Earth's history. 

So if you think about it, like, you know, a historical book, you know, we've ripped out the first two chapters of the book and that's where you get all of the build-up of all the characters, you know, all of the different actions and stuff that always happens in the introduction of your book, right? So we don't quite understand how our planet formed, what it looked like in the very beginning. 

We don't understand a lot of the processes that have gotten to form these rocks, but we have a planet right next door, which is Mars, and it seems to have sort of a very similar history starting, how it started out. It has volcanoes, we see features on the surface that look like water has been present on the surface of Mars. 

But something happened to that planet along the way and it sort of froze in time. And so if we study some of those rocks, maybe we can learn a little bit about that planet. But I think it has a really good relationship to our planet in that, you know, something has changed so that it's not geologically active anymore. 

There is no more surface shallow water. Why did that happen? How does that relate to our planet or not? And, you know, asking that fundamental question is, you know, is there life out there in the solar system beyond Earth? 

Dawn Stringer: Do you have any suspicions on what may have happened? 

Kim Tait: Well, you know, we only have, you know, a small little sampling of the surface of Mars. So, you know, we've sent a lot of missions there to study, you know, the atmosphere, study the gases that are present. We are looking with rovers right now taking images and taking scientific measurements. But what's I think going to be really the key part of Martian research is bringing material back from the surface. 

So once we start getting rocks from, you know, this is called Jezero Crater, that's where they've landed and that's where the recovering material. We're going to have some sedimentary rocks. We're going to have some different types of rocks than we have right now. What happens with the process of getting the rocks here is only the sort of the strongest of the most competent rocks can actually make that journey from Mars to Earth. 

So in that process, we're losing a lot of different types of rocks that I think would tell that big story about what happened to Mars. But we can see processes of active running water on the surface. So there's all these processes that were occurring at some point and, you know, we have some ideas of why that happened, but I don't think we have the full story yet. 

Dawn Stringer: You mentioned suspicion or some evidence that may have shown that there could have been life on Mars. That's something that a lot of people are interested in. Can you elaborate a little bit on that? 

Kim Tait: Yeah, of course. So, I mean, I think, you know, a real fundamental question is, you know, are we alone? Life here is very vibrant, and, you know, we've had a long, long history. But as we go explore not only our own solar system, but other ones, you know, some of these images from the James Webb telescope even this week have shown that we're seeing these exoplanets, so planets that are very, very far distance from us, having all the conditions that could be correct for life as we know it. And so we have to be really careful that we don't want to narrow our view on life is only being like us, right. We need, we need sunlight, we need oxygen, we need, you know, all of these conditions for our life to thrive. But, you know, as we've explored the bottom of the ocean, for example, we find life that doesn't need light. And, you know, that was even not that long ago when we made those discoveries sort of in the 1980s where it's like, oh, my goodness, there can be life in different environments. 

So we need to be really careful that we are very open to thinking about life in different forms. But yes, you know, I think it would be hard to believe that there wouldn't be some other conditions somewhere out there that would have all the conditions right, to be able to have some sort of life. And, you know, I always show a slide in my lectures, showing Marvin the Martian. 

You know, I don't think we're expecting to find that on Mars, but certainly, you know, maybe some bacteria or some, you know, simple celled organisms, I think that is completely possible. Is it alive now, probably not. So we're kind of looking at life forms that might have survived at some point in the past, but I think that would really shape how we think about life in general if we were able to find life somewhere else and especially on Mars. 

Dawn Stringer: Has there in any other planets in our solar system been confirmed, any kind of life, bacteria, microorganisms on other planets yet? 

Kim Tait: There have been some manuscripts that have thought there has been life, but they've been more recently refuted that that was probably not the case. And so there has been a lot of care and precautions taking in preparing for the Mars sample return mission. So when the material comes back from Mars, it will have to go into a biosafety level four facility. 

And so this is how we would handle COVID or Ebola or, you know, really pathogens that would be dangerous to Earth. And we're doing that out of precaution to make sure that we do not inadvertently introduce, you know, sort of alien life form into society here. But also, I think it's really important to protect the rocks from us as well. 

We don't want to contaminate these samples from any of our biological materials, because if we do find signs of life, we want to make sure that that is actually from another planet, not just from our hands or from sneezing on it or anything that we're doing to contribute to these. So I think it's a sort of a two way street of making sure that any scientific discoveries that we do get from these materials will be definitely from extraterrestrial sources. 

So yeah, there is a lot of care and planning that is going around that and sample contamination is a big one. But no, I don't think there has been anything that has been definitive at this point that there is life somewhere else in the solar system. 

Dawn Stringer: You talking about what the process might be if something was found extraterrestrial reminds me of Independence Day. 

Kim Tait: Right. There's been a lot of movies about this, absolutely. And then certainly with, you know, in the world we've lived in for the last couple of years of labs and, you know, of having dangerous materials around. So we have to be very cautious in talking about this and not scaring the public. And that's something that has been really important in sort of our messaging as well, is that we're you know, we're over, we're almost being over protective of Earth. 

But I think it's the right call until we can rule out any dangers to Earth. But that will cost a lot of money and a lot of time. And we've been planning this for already, for years and years and years. And people are really surprised that we're working on this so early. But, you know, because the material's not coming back until 2030 is, you know, that's so much time. 

But really, it's really important to do this correctly. And I can't wait to get my hands on those samples for sure. 

Dawn Stringer: I love the idea of not wanting to scare the planet unnecessarily without the right information. But I have to ask if you believe in aliens. 

Kim Tait: Well, you know, again, so back to the Marvin Martian thing. No, but I do believe that there is the capability of having life forms out there. Absolutely. I think that would be completely reasonable to believe that, you know, there are you know, we're seeing exoplanets with methane. Well, how would they form methane? There has to have been some sort of process that is, you know, creating these gases. 

They’re finding water out there. We're finding, you know, oxygen. We're finding all the little ingredients that we need to seed life. So, yeah, I think it is very possible. But, you know, time will tell. And, you know, I think the way to really identify if that's possible is to, you know, understand our solar system and we do that by studying the materials that are coming to us for free from these natural processes that are happening and getting to know them. 

And I think, you know, if we look at the Apollo mission, you know, these rocks were brought back 50 years ago. And we're still making, you know, incredible discoveries and measurements on these rocks that have been on our planet for 50 years. So that gives you an example of, you know, how much we still need to learn about our environment. 

And, you know, we're still learning about our own planet. You know, there's places where we don't even understand how, we don't understand how our moon formed, for goodness sakes. You know, so these really fundamental questions are what drives, you know, some of my interests and I think a lot of researchers out there for sure. 

Dawn Stringer: I'm excited to see you further your research. How is EMSL going to help you do that? 

Kim Tait: Well, EMSL has just been such a such a blessing in so many ways. What I love about EMSL is that they’re sort of like a one stop shop. You know, there is a lot of instruments that exist in the world that we can access. But what EMSL does so well comparatively to other places is that it has all the instrumentation in one spot and these instruments can work together, and the scientists can work together, to solve a problem or to answer a question. 

And that's a really unique feature about EMSL that I am so grateful for. There is just a group of scientists that are just as eager to learn, and as eager to talk about science as me. And so, you know, you sort of arrive or even before you arrive, you're having these discussions: I have a question, How are we going to do that? And then all these experts are coming together and they're like, have you thought about this or have you thought about that? And, you know, maybe I haven’t, you know, so they're even bringing some sort of thought process to the research program before I even arrive, which is excellent. And then when we do arrive and come on site, you know, really that flow of, you know, one instrument to the other is, is seamless. 

And everybody is working as a group, as a team together, instead of having one dataset from, you know, X lab and then having to fly around the world to another place, you know, it's just we don't have to do that with EMSL. And so I have been just so completely humbled by not only the instrumentation that is available, but some of the staff and some of my interactions with them have been just absolutely excellent. 

Dawn Stringer: Well, you mentioned some of the instruments. Which instruments have helped you progress your research? 

Kim Tait: I was thinking you're going to ask something along those lines, and I know I don't want to say which one's better because they're all good. So I would say what brought me in to apply was the atom probe that is available at EMSL. But what has progressed as I've used the atom probe is some of the relations to the other instruments, like the NanoSIMS, which I have no experience with whatsoever. 

But, you know, talking to the staff scientists there, they're like, you know, if you did this and this, this might, you know, help you understand this more and, you know, using these other instruments. So it has broadened some of my thinking and some of my approach to some of the problems. So I have greatly benefited from those discussions. 

So atom probe was the, you know, was the hook. But certainly now getting into more of the NanoSIMS and some of the TEM [transmission electron microscopy] work that I've been doing has been extremely beneficial. 

Dawn Stringer: So how will this research impact society and benefit society in the future? 

Kim Tait: Yeah, so I mean, that's a really good question. You know, there's always, you know, sort of direct benefits and then there are sort of indirect and you know, it's interesting to see the indirect effects, I think more so than the direct. You know, sometimes people say, well, you know, how do you know, you're not a doctor, you're not, you know, saving lives. 

You know, how is that relevant or why is that important? But there's a lot of things that spin out of sort of basic research, right? And I think that's what's really exciting to me is, you know, like if you just even look at the Mars sample return, you know, the billions of dollars [that] are being invested. 

So all of the jobs that are being created, but also as we explore space and as we go further and further out there, you know, there is going to be all these you know, they're going to have to push the limits of telecommunications. They're going to have to push the limits of oxygen generation. They're going to have to push the limits of, you know, suits and materials, you know, Kevlar came out of some of the missions from before. 

So those are just some examples. But, you know, there are so many indirect examples of things that are going to come out of not necessarily directly of my research, but sort of as the process goes on with teams of people exploring. And, you know, I think that that would be what I would call this is sort of some of the research I do is sort of the basis for, you know, exploring our solar system. 

Dawn Stringer: What would you say to other researchers who are interested in submitting a proposal to EMSL? 

Kim Tait: So what I would suggest is to reach out to the staff scientists that are present at EMSL because you know, sometimes starting a proposal might be intimidating if you have an analytical technique that you're interested in. I would recommend reaching out to sort of the scientist that's involved, or who runs it mostly, and touch base with them and start to have that dialog in that conversation about the instrument. 

Because I think what came from that is the gentle connections to the other instrumentation that's there. And then maybe you could even have the opportunity to test the sample. So, you know, send one sample out for, you know, one data point or two data points just to sort of show that it's capable or you're able to get this data and sort of the significance of the data that is collected, because I think that was really key to the proposal that we put in, was having that sort of test before to show that everything can work and that we are able to be successful with the data that we have. 

Dawn Stringer: Well, Kim, this is a question that I love to ask people. Are there any unanswered scientific questions that keep you up at night? 

Kim Tait: Hmm, keep me up at night. Well, I sleep quite well, so I wouldn't say keep me up at night per say. But yeah, I think I just really get excited about understanding how things work. And I think that's just like a fundamental, you know, kind of basic question, you know, like, why is this this, why, why, why this? 

You know, kind of as a, as a toddler have just always been there for me. And if I can do one little part to sort of, you know, push the ball down the field a little bit for some of these questions, I think that's really exciting to me. And, you know, I think if we can understand more about Earth, it is really exciting, how we formed, why are we here, why is there life, all these kind of these big questions. I think that is worthy of waking up in the morning and jumping out of bed and getting to work really early. So I think as long as you're doing something that, you know, really excites you and is fun and challenging, that it's worth doing. So, yeah, that's, that would be my answer. 

I don't stay up at night, I would say, but I get up in the morning and get really excited. Yes. 

Dawn Stringer: Well, Kim, this has probably been one of the most interesting conversations I've ever had. And I definitely want to continue to follow your research and where it goes. Where can listeners find you online and maybe keep up with your endeavors? 

Kim Tait: I have a website TaitLab.com, so that would be a good place to look at some of our more recent research and stuff. And yeah, I'm on Twitter, I'm on LinkedIn, so definitely find me and follow along. I try to post regularly about what's happening and what's exciting in space, and happy to have a couple more followers for sure. 

<<music>> 

Dawn Stringer: Thank you for listening to Bonding Over Science, I’m Dawn Stringer for the Environmental Molecular Sciences Laboratory.  

We don’t have time to cover it all, so don’t forget to check out EMSL-DOT-PNNL-DOT-GOV for a full article on this topic featuring who I spoke with today. And don’t forget to follow us on all social media platforms for the latest and greatest news coming from EMSL! 

<<music>> 

Dawn Stringer: EMSL is a Department of Energy, Office of Science national user facility that accelerates scientific discovery and pioneers new capabilities to understand biological and environmental processes across temporal and spatial scales. EMSL leads the scientific community toward a predictive understanding of complex biological and environmental systems to enable sustainable solutions to the nation’s energy and environmental challenges. If you’re interested in working with EMSL, learn more at emsl.pnnl.gov, that’s E-M-S-L-DOT-P-N-N-L-DOT-G-O-V. 

[end]